=(Un)Offical Technic Pack Discussion Thread=

If one of the parties could learn how to ignore the other party then we wouldn't need topics like this.

I fail to see how this thread serves any "good" purpose?

It is clear (to me at least) that the maintainers of the Technic pack is breaking copyright law and they are being asshats about it too.
Then they go and argue LAW without understanding law at it's most basic level.
Then they resume their arrogant and disrespectful ways.

Then they want to tell us "They are really nice guys"...
Yeah, they might be nice guys. As long as they get what they want and nobody defies them.

Sorry, that just doesn't cut it in the real world.
Please spare us anything that has anything to do with Technic pack. And please allow ALL to ridicule any users using Technic pack. They need to be informed of just how wrong they are by using that pack.

Disclaimer:


I am totally and utterly Christmas eve drunk, anything i post today might be full of spelling errors and typos and ramblings and other hilarity.

Did anyone else quit watching the Yogscast after this crap came up? I know I did.

Had a friend who used technic pack... So I looked into it. The next day during band I cussed him out for it. There is a saying that goes like this; "possesion is 90% of the law," I believe the technic pack should be routed out, however on Mojang's TOS I didn't see any real clarification on whether or not a modders work is protected by their copyright, would be cool if i could get some clearance on that.

Reading the Minecraft ToS clearly puts the entire modding community on very shaky ground. It clearly states not to distribute anything they have made or to distribute modified versions of anything they have made. The entire modding community requires this. I hope the new API Jeb is working on clears this up, and hopefully Mojang will adopt a proper licensing agreement since even this is a matter of licensing and not of copyright.

A couple of fun facts:

Copyright infringement is not theft. This has been decided by several courts and has never been refuted.
Copyright infringement in all but very rare cases is a civil matter, and as a result the only guaranteed rewards for a won case are provable losses/damages.

Quote from Vroomfondle

Reading the Minecraft ToS clearly puts the entire modding community on very shaky ground. It clearly states not to distribute anything they have made or to distribute modified versions of anything they have made. The entire modding community requires this. I hope the new API Jeb is working on clears this up, and hopefully Mojang will adopt a proper licensing agreement since even this is a matter of licensing and not of copyright.

A couple of fun facts:

Copyright infringement is not theft. This has been decided by several courts and has never been refuted.
Copyright infringement in all but very rare cases is a civil matter, and as a result the only guaranteed rewards for a won case are provable losses/damages.

Absolutely, every time a modder releases a base class mod (that includes me too btw) he is also redistributing part of the minecraft code. That is against the copyright that comes with MineCraft.
ModLoader, ModLoaderMP and Forge are all base class "mods".

Now, where i live (Sweden) you are not allowed to obtain copyrighted materials without permission either. This applies to many other countries as well. Simply downloading ModLoader, ModLoaderMP and Forge is a violation of the copyright and I (and many others) can be charged for that just the same as the people who distributed the minecraft base class modifications. Notch lives in Sweden too and he knows just too well what piracy is (Piratebay) and knows about the laws on copyright.
Distributing and/or obtaining parts of or the entirety of "minecraft.jar" from any other source than minecraft.net is a violation of the copyright. Doesn't matter if it's 1% original MC code and 99% your own code.

Now, why should Notch even care if we thumb a little on the copyrights to make mods possible which gives him more sales and a greater community? (which is a HUGE advertisement machine running 24/7)
Well, on one hand he doesn't care that much, he is aware of the benefits he receives from the modding community. It has sped up the rate of success for Minecraft in ways he can't even begin to imagine. I would dare say, without mods for MC, the game would still be as popular as it was about 2 years ago.
Howver, on the other hand he does care a lot about the copyright...

The thing about java code is that it is easily reverse engineered since it's in the most basic way just a set of compiled instructions that can be decompiled very easily. Hence why Notch has to obfuscate the code.
The people maintaining MCP has done an awesome job (I have done a very small part of it) de-obfuscating the code which has helped countless modders make awesome mods. The thing about this though is that, once you have ONE base class file you can de-compile it and read it as code. Albeit in the form "xx.yy.zzz()" instead of "Block.blockID.ShiftedIndex()" as an example. MCP (Minecraft Coder Pack) will turn all the "xx.yy.zzz()" type code into human readable code.

Now, if a modder releases something very important to the way MC works, like the cave generation code, then a competitor to Mojang and Minecraft can "steal" this code and implement it in his own game with a few changes (to claim it is his code) and be one step closer to making a minecraft clone that is as good or better than minecraft. So every base class that gets in the hands of another developer is equal to you giving your secret "super awesome burger sauce recipe" to the competing restaurant across the street.
Obviously, the competing developer can spare the money to buy MC and as such will gain access to the entire code base so this is quite far fetched. But it still is copyright violation to redistribute and receive copyrighted material without permission.
It doesn't matter that you can get a complete copy of minecraft and minecraft server anywhere on the internet easily without owning the game and are able to play it cracked with ALL the features.
It doesn't matter if you already own the game, downloading it or parts of it from any other source than minecraft.net is a violation of the copyright.

...

So now we get to the complicated part... To make a mod in minecraft we pretty much have to make a base class modification somewhere. None of BuildCraft, Industrial Craft or RedPower etc etc would be possible without ModLoader, ModLoaderMP and Forge providing hooks into the minecraft code... Well, they would be possible but would take twice the work to maintain and would most likely NOT be compatible with each other.
So we cannot get away from modifying and releasing Minecraft base classes to make our mods.

But besides the fact we need Forge etc to make base clean (that is, not alter the base classes) and allow these mods to run in tandem without clashing into each other at the base code... IC2, BC and RP2 are ALL originals in that the author can issue his own copyright on his work. The code and the files ONLY belong to the developer in question that made them. That is:

• SpaceToad and his developers for Buildcraft.
• Eloraam for Red Power.
• Alblaka and his developers for Industrial Craft.

They are in the same position as Notch, they CAN make money from donations and adf.ly links. People downloading their mods from other sources are very unlikely to donate or use the "appropriate" adf.ly links.
While i personally think using adfly links is quite the double morale and a complete waste of time and only serves to make the process of downloading the mods more painful i also see why they want to do it. They want something in return for spending countless hours making things that serve the community as a whole rather than themselves. They are doing things they don't necessarily want to make us happy.

I will NEVER use any adfly links or likewise. I will never accept ANY donations for my modding work. I make all code because i want to, not because i have to.
While i appreciate the odd "Thank you" here and there i would never demand anything from anyone when making mods.

For me sharing is caring!

But if my only source of real life income would come from modding then my attitude would change pretty quick. Notch has no other source of income than Minecraft. As such, should minecraft die out from competition or otherwise then it is the same thing as losing your job.
However, i make money off coding but i only make money off coding on demand. Someone needs some code that i am not interested in making for free and as such they ask me to make it and i get paid.
I build and repair computers from time to time. As much as i love building a new computer i also hate dealing with all the crap that comes along with it when I'm not the one who is going to be using it. On countless occasions i have DECLINED fixing a certain computer even if i would get paid €60 to do so because it would just bee too much work doing it.

If however i feel like this would benefit me and thus feel motivated in doing some coding for FUN then i share freely. And i stand fast to my "sharing is caring" motto.
Anyone is free to "steal" my stuff, they are only really stealing from themselves because it doesn't belong to anyone. So if the "Technic pack" wants to use my OreVeins mod they can do so freely. They don't need my permission, if they ask i will not tell them to sod off.
But i still will not accept their attitudes, they could be much nicer about it but they openly shit on the developers who have other wishes.

That just doesn't fly with me. As such i will call them names and point out how wrong they are ad infinitum until they fix their bad ways.

Very nice reply, and I am somewhat surprised. The vast majority of people, some of them well known, have absolutely no idea of their position. The very same arguments they use can be used against them, and they have no idea.

I would like to point out a big misconception though. I am pretty sure I know the motivations of the creators of the two largest mod packs pretty well. The initial and primary motivations of both packs (Yogbox and Technic) is to create a minecraft "world" that contains features (mods) that are interesting to them personally, and to make the installation and compatibility as easy as possible.

Just as the modders were addressing what they felt were holes in their Minecraft experience so have the mod pack authors reacted. Ease of installation and compatibility are the issues being addressed by the mod packs and they are just as important to the modders as the mods are to Minecraft. These issues have been somewhat addressed, but they are not completely resolved. This is why the mod packs exist and why they will continue to exist until the issues are addressed.

I feel that the whole situation has been blown completely out of proportion, and that the mod makers that are holding a hard line are doing themselves a disservice for no real benefit.

Quote from Vroomfondle

Very nice reply, and I am somewhat surprised. The vast majority of people, some of them well known, have absolutely no idea of their position. The very same arguments they use can be used against them, and they have no idea.

I would like to point out a big misconception though. I am pretty sure I know the motivations of the creators of the two largest mod packs pretty well. The initial and primary motivations of both packs (Yogbox and Technic) is to create a minecraft "world" that contains features (mods) that are interesting to them personally, and to make the installation and compatibility as easy as possible.

Just as the modders were addressing what they felt were holes in their Minecraft experience so have the mod pack authors reacted. Ease of installation and compatibility are the issues being addressed by the mod packs and they are just as important to the modders as the mods are to Minecraft. These issues have been somewhat addressed, but they are not completely resolved. This is why the mod packs exist and why they will continue to exist until the issues are addressed.

I feel that the whole situation has been blown completely out of proportion, and that the mod makers that are holding a hard line are doing themselves a disservice for no real benefit.

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"blown out of proportion"? Not really, the Tecnic pack person basically has admitted to outright stealing of other's work without permission. This is utterly wrong in more ways than one and should be stopped. Doesn't matter what their motivations are.

Quote from FnordMan

"blown out of proportion"? Not really, the Tecnic pack person basically has admitted to outright stealing of other's work without permission. This is utterly wrong in more ways than one and should be stopped. Doesn't matter what their motivations are.

Is that better or worse than the modders "stealing" from Mojang and not admitting it? It is like you read only part of the above, or only picked out the part you felt comfortable with. You could even go as far to say that the mod packs are infringing less because they are not taking the mods as their own unlike the modders themselves.

I think the technic pack should be taken down because they completely circumvent the adfly links that Spacetoad and Eloraam use for their mods. I hate the adfly, but I like the mods so much I'm willing to put up with it.

Quote from ccrraazzyyman

I think the technic pack should be taken down because they completely circumvent the adfly links that Spacetoad and Eloraam use for their mods. I hate the adfly, but I like the mods so much I'm willing to put up with it.

You do realize that there is software out there that lets the user completely circumvent ad.fly and similar services? This software provides absolutely nothing to the community and are in fact far more damaging. Ad.fly and the like are horrible methods of income not to mention rude, potentially distructive, and in my opinion ripping the modders off. By clicking an ad.fly link the average user is going to think they have done their part, and paid their fair share.

If you really would like to support the mod makers simply donating $1 would provide far more income than the average number of clicks you might generate through the interstitial adds. That $1 covers 250 clicks. I personally have never come even close to 250 downloads of any single mod. Now imagine that a single mod has 30,000 users, and each one of those users donated $1. See my point?

Don't support ad.fly, Donate, and see the service that the mod packs bring to the table.

I think there is likely no good solution; but maybe even the adfly links are technically worse than distributing for free since there's an argument that profit might be being made from distributing someone else's copyrighted material (which you have to distribute in order to inter-operate with it... I suppose you technically could distribute an installer and a patch, but already the patch would need updated functions, not just new ones, leading you right back to where we are now).

What would be good, and ethical if possibly not legal, would be to better connect with the community. A choice of base level (adfly/whatever there is now) or donating a little to receive recognition in little but powerfully enabling ways. Those who had donated would have access to the (weekly/nightly) alpha builds that compiled, direct download links, and a proportional 'vote' to distribute among mod-creator endorsed ideas for what to work on next with the mod. (It would be a guideline, not something set in stone; programming is, like all creative things, an art.)

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Then they want to tell us "They are really nice guys"...
Yeah, they might be nice guys. As long as they get what they want and nobody defies them.

Yup, that's Goonswarm for you... I'm kinda surprised that the Yogcast doesn't have a banner for the SomethingAwful forums on their videos when they release them...

This type of behavior is seen in EVERY game they involve themselves in... EVE Online, Second Life, you name it.. their actions are practically the same...

Quote from Alblaka

I HATE if i hit "edit" instead of "reply". Sorry headhunter.

Pronouncing this part.
He DID contact me afterwards and got my approval for the modpack and excused for using it before asking.

Of course, feel free to further debate about this topic in general, given this doesn't end up in flames.

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Yeah, that's all fine and well.

They didn't ask for permission first = bad manners.
They received permission after the fact and apologized = All is forgiven.

They still have X number of mods in their pack that they haven't received permission to use = They still don't give a rats ass about other peoples work.
They still have X number of mods in their pack that they have been asked to remove but refuse to remove = They are being asshats about it.

All of this could have been solved if they had spent some extra time asking first and adding later.
And further more, taking in that many mods and releasing a mod pack means they will ultimately have to deal with all the support requests for said pack.

If someone is using Techinc pack i will redirect them to the Technic pack thread/forums/whatever they have if they run into a problem.
And i will still suggest they DON'T use Technic pack for the above reasons and the fact that installing mods isn't rocket science... Heck, even installing the Rocket Science addon isn't rocket science.

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They still have X number of mods in their pack that they haven't received permission to use = They still don't give a rats ass about other peoples work.
They still have X number of mods in their pack that they have been asked to remove but refuse to remove = They are being asshats about it.

All of this could have been solved if they had spent some extra time asking first and adding later.
And further more, taking in that many mods and releasing a mod pack means they will ultimately have to deal with all the support requests for said pack.

This right here is the ultimate reason why Technic is plainly bad for both MC and Forge. It's not the fact that it 'makes installation easier' (like it was hard to begin with, lol), it's the fact that the blatantly DO NOT ask for any permissions before they throw mods into said packs to begin with... I'm pretty damn sure that, beforehand, if they had talked to any of the said mod developers (except FC, since that man has no sense of logic anyway) before they used them that they could have developed the pack no problems...

But this is Kakermix, beloved 'hero' for Goonswarm: an organization that loves to profiteer off of making online play miserable for everyone and defiles every game that they touch with bile, malevolence, and spite. They don't ask permissions because they LOVE pissing people off with their actions, and spinning some 'but we're helping you out bro' justification afterwords. In every post (yes, every post) either Kakermix or another fellow goonswarm member has stated that they 'are doing good' by either 'donating money and not using adfly', 'giving more publicity that you may have ever got', 'made it easier for people to enjoy your work'. Sure, they did those things, but at what price? Increased installation problems and help requests, further issues with incompatibility and off-the-wall technical errors, and even more of the useless 'when iz thiz mod be update 4 1.x.x.x?!?!/!/11?!'... About half of the errors encountered actually have to be solved thru manual re-installation of said mods, which leaves most users further behind square one than if they had not touched the pack to begin with...

Quite frankly, there isn't anything left to be said: Goonswarm, via Kakermix, will still operate in this fashion no matter how much the Forge and MC community dislikes it. Even if all the MC users protests their moves, they will still function with the same excuse lines of 'but this is really better for your 'backwater' community'. Really now? It's better for Forge to be used in such a defiled manner?

Maybe it is for Goonswarm, but not for anyone else...

Quote from Cadde

If someone is using Techinc pack i will redirect them to the Technic pack thread/forums/whatever they have if they run into a problem.
And i will still suggest they DON'T use Technic pack for the above reasons and the fact that installing mods isn't rocket science... Heck, even installing the Rocket Science addon isn't rocket science.

This is more than welcome. The only time we ever redirect support issues back to the mods is if it is an obvious bug with the mod itself and it may be an issue that hasn't been posted in the mod's thread a hundred times already.

Installing most mods, particularly those contained within Technic (thanks Forge), is not a difficult process that is true. However it can be time consuming and fiddly, and in the case of multiplayer you can have compatibility issues. A lot of people don't want to put up with the hassle. They just want it to work. Technic provides one answer. Until there is an overall means of dealing with compatibility and ease of installation Technic and the like (Servers distributing their own packs for example) are here to stay.

I'm really excited about the Mojang/Bukkit API, Spout, and the things Chicken Bones is working on. Things could get really interesting really fast.