Solar/Nuclear energy "price".

1st Official Post

    First of all, hello everyone on this forum. Just created account, but was into IC since 5.xx (IIRC) version. English is't my native, so excuse me any spelling errors, please.


    Matter that made me to create topic is about "price" for getting same amounts of Solar and Nuclear energy.
    For example, a simple Mark I-O (B) reactor with 3 efficency, giving 60 EU\t, using 1 Reactor Chamber and surrounded by water (25 blocks):


    To create this installation, you will need following materials in total:
    - 32 Rubber
    - 171 Copper Ignot
    - 16 Tin Ignot
    - 80 Iron Ignot
    - 32 Redstone Dust
    - 8 Cobblestone
    - 10 Glowstone Dust
    - 10 Lapiz Lazuli
    And you will need a breeder and/or 4 Uranim per full cycle (4 MC days, as i understood?)


    For the same 60 EU\t You will need 60 Solar Panels and 2 Batboxes (2 Solar Flowers of 30 panels each, using template from this forum, for i.e.), which will require following in total:
    - 140 Rubber
    - 130 Copper Ignot
    - 264 Tin Ignot
    - 580 Iron Ignot
    - 132 Redstone Dust
    - 580 Cobblestone
    - 160 Coal
    - 160 Sand


    I am not even counting energy/time you will need to create both, because Solar way will get much longer. And, if to count that Solar power is "active" only 1/2 of MC day, you can double required resources to maintain stable 60 EU\t from it. Nuclear Power is a LOT cheaper, easier and faster to create, then any other source of energy. Which made me to totally "throw away" solar panels, wind and water generators. Only Geothermal Generators could match Nuclear power in very short term, since you could use Nether for Lava Cells.


    Currently best way is: 1 Geothermal Generator, 1 Macerator, 1 Electronic Furnace, 1 Compressor -> Mark I-O (B) Nuclear Reactor -> Profit.


    TL/DR: My point (question?) is - don't you think, that such cheap and easy to acquire energy makes 1/3 (other types of generators) of IC2 kinda absolutely useless?

    No, i am not ranting/complaining, those actions are useless and plain discouraging for product creators only >.>
    Just stating an issue i'v encountered and have't seen on this forum yet.


    In IC 1 we had a choice:
    1 (Tier 1?). Low-yield cheap Water and Wind generators (depending on location), for few-machines homes.
    2 (Tier 2?). One-time Geothermal Generators, for few-machines homes. Need energy - take 1 bucket of lava, use Macerator on 64 iron ore you just mined.
    3 (Tier 3?). High-yield expencive Solar Generators, for large automated factories.
    4 (Tier 4?). Unpredictable, dungerous Nuclear Reactors. Mainly for "showing off" for large complexes.
    Main "way" of doing things was straight. You want more machines = more generators = more work in the end.


    In IC 2 we have a choice:
    1 (Tier 1?). Low-yield cheap Water and Wind generators (depending on location), for few-machines homes.
    2 (Tier 2?). One-time Geothermal Generators, for few-machines homes. Need energy - take 1 bucket of lava, use Macerator on 64 iron ore you just mined.
    3 (Tier 3?). High-yield expencive Solar Generators, for large automated factories.
    4 (Tier 2???). Easily managable, cheap and reliable Nuclear Reactors. Undoubtly better, then Solar Panels (except in few-years gameplay long terms).
    Main "way" of doing things became "spoiled" (IMHO). Due to low cost, Nuclear power renders Solar/ Wind/ Water generators obsolet from starting of game.
    1 Geothermal Generator = whole farm of wind/water, enough to produce simpliest Nuclear Reactor, even for small few-machines houses. Does't require much space either.


    Points 1-3 from second list became point 4 from first list. All those generators are only for "showing off". Or am i terribly missing something? I would suggest just increase "price" of making nuclear reactos, so they would became trully high-end machinery, needed for large complex. To make Nuclear Power more "powerful" (Which is currently most powerfull, 60+EU\t from Mark I 3*3*3 space reactor, sweet!), but more expencive too. Or changing Nuclear machinery recipes to require more advanced materials, like Powered Crystals or Iridium?


    P.S. Never said Solar Panels are overpowered. To build a fully automated Buildcraft Quarry + IC Machines factory we'v made huge complex on my server, powered by 256+ Solar Panels. That took around a week for 4 of us.

    This is an aside, but I can't see how your reactor stays cool - looking at it, I count 96 units of heat produced every tick, but only 12 units dispersed internally and 28 units dispersed externally every tick.

    • Official Post

    One big advantage of solar panels and their other green-energy kin is that they're way simpler to set up and maintain. Throw 'em on the ground, hook up a copper cable, bam. Set and forget, running on an unlimited resource. No cooling, no breeders, no math involved. For an advanced user, nuclear reactors are hands-down the way to go. But for a more casual player, ease of setup shouldn't be underestimated. :D


    Although I wouldn't object to nuclear reactors being a bit more expensive, looking at your material lists. They do feel like they should be in bloody-expensive-but-high-yield category. Either that or adding another dangerous byproduct, but adding radiation/radioactive waste material is another subject entirely.

    Quote from Sukasa

    This is an aside, but I can't see how your reactor stays cool - looking at it, I count 96 units of heat produced every tick, but only 12 units dispersed internally and 28 units dispersed externally every tick.


    - yes, thank you, that's what i keep missing - not multiplying heat generated by every additional Uranium Cell tick. Still, that kinda does't change overall situation. You can make Mark I Reactor generating 40 EU\t with efficency at 2 and still it'll be cheaper, then solar power both ways. 60 panels will overdo 1 Urianum in 220 minutes. Not to mention breeders.


    On second (well, tenths) though, Solar Panels are just Tier 4, not Tier 3. And Nuclear Reactors are Tier 3. If to take resource-quantity as measurement, not resource-quality.
    NC's are easier/cheaper to build, but in very long term they are not unlimited, unlike SP's.


    So, it goes like: Some Resources -> Geothermal Generator + Basic Machinery -> More Resources -> Nucler Reactors -> LOTS of resources -> Solar Panels -> Eternal Profit.


    I am retracting my point, Alblaka, that happend to be matter of point of view, not objective fact X( My bad.


    P.S IMHO, efficient SP farm require more wiring/planning/jumping, then NC's. Wind generators and their skyscrapping towers? Water Generators and thair water-towers? Casual-friendly? Naah.

    • Official Post

    Btw... Regarding the "super-effective, no-risk":
    You realised the Reactor is currently critically bugged, causing Coolers to eliminate all heat? Thus your "perfect overpowered" reactor is probably just a bugged one :3


    However, i admit the Reactor should be slightly more expensive, eventually. Probably move it to Advanced Machines, thus requiring Carbon Plates and Additional Alloy to craft.

    Quote from Alblaka

    However, i admit the Reactor should be slightly more expensive, eventually. Probably move it to Advanced Machines, thus requiring Carbon Plates and Additional Alloy to craft.

    Oh great, tovarish' Dreamer, you did it... :pinch:
    No, I'm joking, this is really thing-that-you-should-do-with-Reactors.
    BTW, what aboud snow and ice block cooling?
    And (maybe already reported) I can remove Reactor with maximum 5 added Chambers (if right-click with Wrench at Reactor) and all will be fine, even Chambers will be dropped, but with 6 added Chambers it will only open GUI.

    Yep, I am from Russia, and yep, my english isn't good enough...
    So if.. if you dare to laugh of me, I.. I will find you and destroy with all our Soviet nuclear bombs, bwahahaha!
    Naah, I'm just kidding ^^ ... not. :|

    Yes I noticed
    However I think that (as I have voiced before that Nuclear reactors should be Upgraded with Iridium personally I think that they are materially expensive enough as they are in their current condition (ignoring the cooling bug)

    Now people, don't forget that Nuclear Power also needs constant new supplies and needs to be refilled and constantly checked to know if coolant cells arent overheating.

    Here's the thing:


    Solar panels are completely autonomous and fool proof.
    Reactors on the other hand need a watching eye, to ensure that all operations are working smoothly. Albeit, the recipe should at least include an advanced machine.

    I think what people forget is that nuclear power isnt exactly rocket science. You pile a bunch of uranium, pour water over it and voila! The thing that makes it so complicated is making it 99.999999% safe. Thus the material costs for the reactor itself are probably correct as they are, potentially cooling components and other safety equipment could be made more expensive to make it harder to run a safe reactor.

    Quote from IC_Pandemonium

    I think what people forget is that nuclear power isnt exactly rocket science. You pile a bunch of uranium, pour water over it and voila! The thing that makes it so complicated is making it 99.999999% safe. Thus the material costs for the reactor itself are probably correct as they are, potentially cooling components and other safety equipment could be made more expensive to make it harder to run a safe reactor.

    and then your 70% safe reactor just Happens to blow up FOUR ENTIRE chunks and your chest room NTM the reactor itself and wiring/power storage devices

    By the time you need to refuel the reactor more than 8 times, the solar is already win the rest of the lifetime.

    Please ignore this floating platform with 10,000 solar panels. Nothing to see here.

    Not to be a necromancer or anything, but I also think nuclear reactors are a bit too good. They are very compact, produce a lot of energy, and only needs a small amount of babysitting. It might just be me, but on my first day of nuclear engineering I had (legitly) built a perfect 9k temp breeder (even with 1 of each uran and isotope it still produces) and a mk1B reactor with respectively 0 and 1 additional chamber. Lots of credit to whoever made the thermometer mod though, it simplifies stuff by over 9000%


    I think it would be fair enough to make reactor chambers more expensive, both to make nuclear power distinctly "high-tier" AND to make ppl think twice about slapping 6 of them onto every reactor.
    Current recipe is:


    ADA
    PMP
    APA
    A = alloy, D = heat deriv, P = plating, M = Machine


    I'm thinking of:


    PCP
    DAD
    PCP
    A = adv. machine C = adv.circuit


    That would change the recipe cost from:
    14 Riron, 9 tin, 27 copper, 1 adv.circ


    to:
    20 Riron, 18 tin, 46 copper, 16 coal, 4 adv.circ


    That would make reactors generally more expensive but also a bit scewed towards "advanced" materials, which is a great improvement IMO.


    Meh, maybe it's too much now?



    Edit @above: It's piece a cake to make a 100% safe reactor with decent output, like my 20EU/t heat-neutral 1-addon reactor :love:

    but is it efficient enough to grabt you spending your time on digging up uranium every time you run out?
    I have to agree with the OP here and say that Nuclear power is Teir 3 while solar panels are Teir 4
    since 1 solar panel requires 1 generator, 3 coal and outputs 1EU/t for half a day / night cycle but is eternally productive with no further regulation yes nuclear generators are already expensive enough if you want to produce much energy without blowing holes in your world.

    • Official Post

    Thats not a Mk I, thats a Mk III, you are producing 96 heat, 4 cells*3 ticks per cell* 4 heat per adjacent cooling cell*2 adjacent cooling cells= 96
    and you are only cooling 35, +22 water block (22 because you have to wire it with redstone somehow or it will explode), +1 for reactor itself, +12 coolant cells =35 that means you can only run about 36% of the time meaning you would only need ~36% of the materials listed for a solar array to equal the same output.


    - 50 Rubber
    - 47 Copper Ignot
    - 94 Tin Ignot
    - 209 Iron Ignot
    - 48 Redstone Dust
    - 209 Cobblestone
    - 58 Coal
    - 58 Sand


    This is, of course, not rounded to an actual number of solar array just 36% of what you listed. Also it doesn't count a breeder cycle if you wish to be completely even that would have to be included. According to the early reactor thread, you cannot, in fact, have a decent (over 9k heat) breeder with 0 chambers. So, assumeing you can get a perfect breeder running, you then need to account for the time it takes to run, decreasing your efficiency down to about 31%.


    Also, your figures are off for the cost of the reactor:


    For the reactor: 20 advanced alloy = 30 tin 30 iron 30 bronze
    30 bronze = 1.5 copper and .5 tin = 15 tin + 45 copper
    8 reactor plating = 4 additional copper per = 32 copper
    2 IHDs = 2 copper, 1 adv circut each, and 2 collant cells each= 4 copper, 2 adv circuits, 2 coolant cells
    additionally for the reactor: 2 adv circuits 2 machine blocks 1 generator
    2 machine blocks= 8 iron each = 16 iron
    1 generator = 1 iron furnace 1 RE Battery 1 iron
    1 Iron furnace = 1 furnace 5 iron
    1 furnace = 8 stone
    1 RE battery = 1 copper wire 2 redstone 4 tin
    For the internal components:
    4 advanced alloy = 6 tin 6 iron 6 bronze
    6 bronze = 1.5 copper and .5 tin = 3 tin + 9 copper
    4 reactor plating = 4 additional copper per = 16 copper
    4 IHDs = 2 copper, 1 adv circut each, and 2 collant cells each= 8 copper, 4 adv circuits, 4 coolant cells
    Also for the internal components 10 coolants cells.


    Balance 8 adv circuits 16 coolant cells 1 copper wire
    16 coolant cells = 4 tin
    8 adv circuts = 4 restone 2 glowdust 2 Lapiz Lazuli 1 electronic circuit = 32 redstone 20 glowdust 20 Lapiz Lazuli 10 electronic circuits
    8 electronic circuits = 6 copper wire 2 redstone 1 iron= 8 iron 16 redstone 48 copper wire
    49 copper wire = 1/2 copper 1 rubber = 50 rubber 25 copper with 1 wire left over


    Total
    - 50 Rubber
    - 139 Copper (25+8+16+9+4+32+45)
    - 62 Tin (4+3+6+4+15+30)
    - 65 Iron (8+6+4+16+1+30)
    - 52 Redstone Dust (16+32+2)
    - 8 Cobblestone
    - 16 Glowstone Dust
    - 16 Lapiz Lazuli


    These are a bit off from what's required as you omitted the additional chamber needed for the 4x6 grid.
    I got:
    55 x Rubber
    188.5 x Copper
    83.5 x Tin
    87 x Iron
    72 x Redstone Dust
    8 x Cobblestone
    18 x Glowstone Dust
    18 x Lapis Lazui


    and
    4 Uranium & 1 Tin per cycle


    Either way it doesn't look like quite the bargain the OP makes it out to be.