I'm not sure where this post should go. It's mainly from a conversation with friends in a big modded server (~50, 70 players), but it was about IC2, and about balance in the game. There will be lots of suggestions here, I guarantee. There will also be a lot of typos, since english is my second language 
I think the normal IC2 is pretty cool. And balanced. Maybe a bit too much. It's kinda hard to get Nuclear Reactors, UU Matter and Quantum armor going on "normal" IC2. Damn, it's hard to even make a Miner work! And that's kinda of a bad thing. IC2 power is a bit hard to get. That makes people go crazy with huge Windmill towers and insane reactor designs that run for 10secs. That, in the good old IC2. But usually, people don't play just with IC2. Oh no, they play with a lot of other mods. They play with BuildCraft, RedPower, EquivalentExchange... Some of these mods are really op (I mean, in EE, you can kinda make Lava Cells from nothing with Condensers and Collectors), and these mods make it so much easier. You can simply put a pump in the Nether and run 50 Geothermals because you know, who needs Reactors? Well, if your answer was me, you probably made one of those crazy MK Vs that use Snow Golems, Block Breakers, Auto Crafting Tables, Compressors, etc. All of that is really nice but...
We're on a server. That probably wasn't so important like 2 months ago, when there was no sign 1.3 would make Minecraft a game that "must" be played in multiplayer (yes, multi was important before, but not nearly as much). It is important now. Lag is something very important. I can run 1.2.5 on "max" just fine, but when I tried 1.3, my computer gasped so much I could hear it crying. But this problem isn't new, oh no. It's been such a big issue in IC2 that some machines cause too much lag that people made an addon to help it. You probably heard of it: CompactSolars. That beauty can put 512 EU/t in a single block. Is that op? Hell no! It's basically a lag decreaser. But unfortunately, people with this have been giving up on Reactors just to build some HV Solar Arrays. So, going against almost everyone I've talked to, I don't think CompactSolars should be added to IC2. Neither that "other" plugin, the one called Advanced Machines, because...
Induction Furnaces are OP. They just are. To make two Electric Furnaces run at a decent speed, or even a speed that's near the 100% heated Induction Furnace, it's needed a ridiculously huge amout of both work and energy. Overclocker, Transformer and Storage Upgrades are required, and that yields MFSU, Reactor and all of those shenanigans to get lots of Energy. An Induction Furnace on the other hand, just needs 6EU/t and shazam! Two slots for input, two slots for output and there you go, super speed at the cost of a few Solars. That is bad because with it, upgrades make no sense. Why would I waste my time making Circuits, Batteries and even Transformers if I just need some Coal and Metals? It's just a waste of time. But I'm aware that the item will most likely not be removed. I suggest at least a nerf, making the thing take more EU or something like that. But at this point, you may be asking to yourself: How the heck am I going to get all this EU? Is this guy nuts? Well, no. The answer is...
Better energy generation. That's one of the things we got more excited about, because IC2 energy generation is real hard. You either get 10 MK I Nuclear Reactors (impossible on most servers), or build one of those huge Windmill towers, or make an insane Solar Factory (yes, we've been watching you Player!) or do one of those "Direwolf20's Watermill System" those things cause lag. Tons of lag. Timers, Tubes, Watermills, all that causes lots of lag. And the problem is people don't know, some even just don't care. And why is that? It's simple. IC2 energy is hard to get. Solars are hard to craft. There is no "easy energy" on IC2. Sure, Geothermals are nice. But we're still talking about SMP. Lava flow is not nice. And even worse, people do bases in the Nether with Mass Fabs and MFSUs just to sit in there charging Lapotron Crystals while UU gets produced. And that is just boring. Our suggestion?
Structural machines. Structural machines are a apparently a thing now, with RailCraft's Coke Oven/Blast Furnace and Forestry, with it's Alveary. The idea is some sort of Structural Watermill system, or even a Hydroelectric could be cool. You know, my country's main energy power comes from Hydreletrics! But you know, eventually, the power of Water is not enough. To complement it, you could do some sort of Structural Windmill system is required. Yes, I'm talking about Eolic Turbines. They should provide more power than Solar Panels, but less than Hydreletrics/Watermills. Solars are just fine for me. I would suggest a change in it's crafting recipe though. For what it offers (1EU/t during half a day), it should have more of a simplistic crafting recipe, something like a specific new item, that would be only used in the crafting recipe of Solar-related items, something like that. Then again, you may be asking yourself: What about Reactors? There's nothing wrong about them... Right? Well, thing is...
Nuclear Reactors should be changed. And when I say changed, I mean that you guys should reduce it's explosion radius. Maybe even remove it. When a Nuclear Reactor overheats IRL, there is no Nuclear Explosion. What there is, is Radiation. Lot's of radiation. Enough Radiation to don't let thing live there for a very, very long time. And that's what Nuclear Reactors should do. Cause radiation. To get near it, you'd need a special type of armor, something made of special Metals and stuff like that, and it should slowly take damage for being next to the reactor. Of course, Reinforced Stone would no longer be the only thing you'd need to make a reactor work. Not sealing your chamber properly would cause radiation to destroy the nearby environment, making all the blocks around it contamined. That should have some radius. Making ir so that all Grass blocks turn into darker dirt blocks, and thus no longer being able to grow Grass or even being able have plants on it. This should also spread with a certain radius. Breaking the block would give you the radiated block. But you know, after the reactor liberates it's radiation, that fancy special armor would not work for too long. Some minutes max. After the armor gets destroyed, you get several bad effects: Poision, Blindness, etc. You'd be killed in a few secs. If that reactor is near your base, that's forever bye for you. If it is on your spawn point, you can say bye to that world too. And since we're talking about armor, I'm sure you're asking yourself: What about Quantum? Well...
Quantum is OP. Yes, I knew he would say that! It's what you probably just thought. But honestly, I don't think Quantum is OP because of it's benefits, or because it's easy to get Quantum. It's not that. I think Quantum is OP because it only takes 1 million EU per piece. That's easy to get, I know. But the thing is, you don't need it. How often you charge your Quantum Suite? It takes ages to fully discharge Quantum Armor. While we were talking about armor, another IC2 addon popped in the conversation: the Gravitation Suite addon. That, I don't think it's OP. Now you're thinking I'm crazy again, but trust me, I'm not. The thing that makes this addon not OP is not just the extremely expensive components of the items. It's the storage. The main item (GravitationChestPlate) hold 10 million EU. Yes, it makes you fly, but it cost 10 million EU! That's not easy to get. Even better (or worse), it's the fact that the flight only lasts for 20 minutes. Yes, that sounds like a lot, but unless you're one of those super crazy guys from the beggining, no way you can get 10 million EU in 20 minutes. Better that is the Hyper mode. It lasts for like 6~7 minutes. Then again, doesn't aply to those super crazy guys from the begining (don't take be bad, I love you guys). My suggestion is a change in the recipe. To add something that's crafted with Lapotron Crystals, in a way the Q. Armor just needs 10 million EU. Like that. Maybe a change in the Iridium Plates recipe. And talkinga about Iridium Plates...
Iridium Plates should be a product of the Nuclear Reactor. I mean, think about it. As awesome as UU is (no, I don't think UU is OP), We should have a better way to get Iridium. And better, of course, means harder! I'm not sure how this could be implemented. Not my idea. But ya know, there's always a way. I think something with depleted Uranium Cells, but not sure. Anyways, the idea of getting Iridium out of Nuclear Reactors sounds awesome to me. Maybe you could use it in Cells to make a less powerful (and less heated) Nuclear Reactor. Who knows? I'll live that for you guys.
And that ends this post. Yes, I know it's huge (space limit sucks ;(), and again, sorry for my terrible english , but you know, this had to be done. The more I love something, the better I want it to be. And kudos to all the IndustrialCraft Team!
Suggestion: More balance to the mod
- RockJB
- Closed
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You've actually got some quite good ideas.
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Point 1:
How does it make sense, Ic2 is messed up because it's balenced, and should change to make other mods (over which alblaka has no control) not do op things to it? No, if others are too op get rid of 'em.
Point 2:
if you have lag issues, get Optifine.
and i agree that compact solars are op, they should have energy output decrease to compensate for saved space
Point 3:
the reason the induction furnace is op, is that smelting is the central process in the workspace, and it would take to long when you have to smelt 540 dusts for a project
personally, I think alblaka should add in induction versions for other machines, but I won't get into that
and as for the upgrade modules, they are meant to make other machines faster, they are not meant to be used in electric furnaces instead of an induction furnace
Point 4:
if there was "easy" energy, the game would be so broken it would be dumb to play because everyone would have 600 completely filled mfsu's, would actually use the crafting recipe of dirt from uum, and would cavort around in full quantum armor
Point 5:
i agree some structural generators would be cool (walk-in reactors anyone?)
Point 6:
I also agree that nuclear reactors need nuclear waste and fallout, in real life you can't walk up to a live nuclear reactor without protection
Point 7:
Quantum is OP, it seems like it was designed with single player only in mind.
I think as balence it should only absorb some of the damage from other players instead of all
and yes it should use a lot more energy over time
Point 8:
Iridirum from nuclear reactors? No, bad idea. How would generating energy from pulling apart molecules generate super alloy?
Too much of a stretch.You have some good ideas, and some that I don't agree with, but, hey, that's why there's addons, so it's the user's choice
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Let me address your points a bit more directly...
I think the normal IC2 is pretty cool, but: There are a few things that the IC team can do to counteract mod interactions (like the recent nerf to manned watermill mode for RP abusers), but never expect them to catch them all...
We're on a server.: Stop using solar arrays as your only source of power, and then you might not have that problem...
Induction Furnaces are OP: God forbid you use Nether ores or Advance machines then...
Better energy generation: No. IC energy generation requires pratical research and/or trial and error. Did you know that you can get constant renewable energy with trees, at almost the same output as coal? Did you also know that you can cut your fuel cost and expodentually increase your EU yield by using partitions of renewable energy to handle that fuel cost?
Structural machines: Impratical with that design. Concept is valid at least
Nuclear Reactors should be changed: Config. setting; use it damn it! Also, irradiated effects are denied afaik
Quantum is OP: You can't expect IC^2 to change around its add-ons. And with the right discipline it's possible to get about 1 billion EU in fuel over contious playtime (both SSP and SMP, mind you).
While your post is really well written and greatly detailed (and don't get me wrong, I like the fact that you created a solid concise thought to bring to the forums other than the mis-aligned trollfest that is this section), many of your ideas speak with inexperience of the game. You need to explore more of your options, use everything at your disposal, and above all else, NEVER take a feature in the game for granted...
Because the real challenge is not to get to X amount of EU, but what ways can you go about getting there...
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Point 1: IC2 is IC2 if you want to play with mods that with IC2 allow to make OP things, it's your fault, no IC2 fault.
Point 2: Again, if other mods mess up IC2 balance, don't use it. It was hard enough to reach this good level of balance with IC2, and now you want to adapt IC2 to ALL other mods that exist out there.
Point 3: Minecraft itself runs like a shit, and if you try to add more awesome to boring vanilla Minecraft, you will need a shitload of CPU cuz Minecraft is Minecraft and runs like a shit. And about that comact solars argument, FenixR a long time ago, explained why that shit is OP and theres not enough pro argumenst to make it less OP. Damn why I coulndt find that post, he even made a few pics with space comparation and all the math.
Point 4: Like F4113nb34st said "the reason the induction furnace is op, is that smelting is the central process in the workspace, and it would take to long when you have to smelt 540 dusts for a project". I hate when a game makes me waste time just to get something a little later, thats not adding dificulty, thats just make me lose my patient.
Point 5: If energy was easy to get, you could have ALL with UU matter, and for people that want easy energy theres a few things out there... one is NEI another one is creative mode.
Point 6: Meh I think structural generators would cause a lot of lag or be extremly costly for its benefits, but I want them D: (I'm looking for that nuclear reactor of Universal Energy or whatever the power mod of that ICMB guy is called)
point 7: "When a Nuclear Reactor overheats IRL..."
Quote from AlblakaUnrealistic?
This...
is...
MINECRAFT *kicks Physics off the ledge*Point 8: Qsuit is only OP for PvE or low tier PvP, and I know about certain IC update that will have some tools to take care of it at any tier... But srly this argument is getting old.
Point 9: Oh gawd no pl0x. IC is not hard if you know about the mod and if you're not lazy, and is not OP PvP if you know about the mod and if you're not lazy.
Point 10: Yes my english is terrible too.
In the end all this points seems coming from a lazy person.
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or do one of those "Direwolf20's Watermill System" those things cause lag. Tons of lag. Timers, Tubes, Watermills, all that causes lots of lag
I think I might know a guy that can help you with this, also energy hard to get? Are you serious? If you don't like all the lag caused by solars, I might know a guy that might help with that too
EDIT: also
Quote(I mean, in EE, you can kinda make Lava Cells from nothing with Condensers and Collectors)
This is why it is frowned upon here, don't use it in your server if you don't like it, it's that simple
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Point 3: Minecraft itself runs like a shit, and if you try to add more awesome to boring vanilla Minecraft, you will need a shitload of CPU cuz Minecraft is Minecraft and runs like a shit. And about that comact solars argument, FenixR a long time ago, explained why that shit is OP and theres not enough pro argumenst to make it less OP. Damn why I coulndt find that post, he even made a few pics with space comparation and all the math.
Please ignore the asshole just passing by this thread.
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Some generic statements from my side:
-We CAN NOT ensure the balance of IC if it's combined with any sort of other mods.QuoteI can run 1.2.5 on "max" just fine, but when I tried 1.3, my computer gasped so much I could hear it crying
1.3 is haywire. It's netcode is bugged, blocklad is omni-present and it eats more CPU then 1.2.5.
If you create large machinery and energy networks, IC draws some FPS as well, there is no arguing necessary. But please believe me if I say IC² is about ~16times more performant then it's earlier versions. We're further working on this, but with features, there comes CPU-drain.QuoteYou probably heard of it: CompactSolars
Yes. It "solves" the 'Lag-Issue' by removing one of the impacting negative effects of solars.
It's not hard to create a Reactor producing the same EUt, whilst using less ressources.QuoteInduction Furnaces are OP
Compared to what? Induction Furnaces ARE an extreme improvement in the regards of smelting stuff. But you will probably come to realize smelting never was a bottleneck to begin with. Usually maceration is the bottleneck of most common factories.
You know what would be OP? Induction Macerators. And that's the reason we officially stated not to implement the Induction mechanism into other devices (like an addon later did).Quote6EU/t
16.QuoteStructural machines.
Ok, at first you complain about IC Generators causing lag.
Then you complain about IC energy being hard/complex to obtain.
And then you propose to add new Generators which are even more complex AND would be much more CPU-intensive? (Because that's what Multi-Block's are.) Of course a 5x5x5 Machine has less CPU-drain then 125 single machines (usually), but it is much more draining then just one 1x1x1 machine.QuoteRadiation
I'll ignore that whole paragraph, please read the already existing (countless) threads in this regard.QuoteQuantum is OP
It's bugged. Or rather WAS bugged, we're working on it, as you could read in the patchnotes. MC's damage handling isn't even close to being what I would call 'neat code'. -
Some of these mods are really op (I mean, in EE, you can kinda make Lava Cells from nothing with Condensers and Collectors), and these mods make it so much easier. You can simply put a pump in the Nether and run 50 Geothermals because you know, who needs Reactors? Well, if your answer was me, you probably made one of those crazy MK Vs that use Snow Golems, Block Breakers, Auto Crafting Tables, Compressors, etc.
EE is currently still cheating (Pahimar has Plans, to change that). And where the fuck do you need an Autocraftingtable in a CASUC-Design?
I can run 1.2.5 on "max" just fine, but when I tried 1.3, my computer gasped so much I could hear it crying.
I bet your Computer has only one Core. But Minecraft-1.3-Singleplayer needs at least two Cores to run fine (one for Client and one for Server). I for example, cannot run 1.3 SSP on my Netbook, but i can join a LAN-game with much less Lag, than in 1.2.5 on that crappy thing.
Structural machines.
Nuclearreactors are Structural. And if you have Automation going, then a Machine consumes quickly more, than just one Block. (every of my Autocraftmodules costs 5 Blocks + Blutric Wiring + sometimes IC²-Wiring)
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I got one very little question.
I saw Alblaka saying several times "Quantum armor is bugged". Here, he says "It's bugged. Or rather WAS bugged, we're working on it, as you could read in the patchnotes. MC's damage handling isn't even close to being what I would call 'neat code'."
Bugged means it doesn't work like it is supposed to work.
So my question is : how is Quantum armor SUPPOSED to work? Is it supposed to absorb 100% of the damage? At what cost? Are we supposed to be fully invincible? -
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Is it supposed to absorb 100% of the damage? At what cost? Are we supposed to be fully invincible?
- Fully invincible
- durability > diamond armor
- Large cost to recharge points to fixIt's supposed to work akin to the old Adv. Nano Suit from IC1 (but better). You'd burn thru energy fast using its functions, but at the same time, there wasn't a whole lot that could hurt you in return...
So the armor was more of an 'energy sink' since at endgame there wasn't much uses for energy after you've acquired millions of EU... (Well, before UU-Matter, that is...)
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Could you give me an example of how much time you could be invincible in lava, if it wasn't bugged - meaning, in how much time would a full plate be empty? (So far, being totally surrounded by lava seems to me it's the fastest way to get damaged)
I'm still stupidly hoping for a configuration file once the devs manage to debug it... :-s
edit : thank you for your answer, by the way.
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Could you give me an example of how much time you could be invincible in lava, if it wasn't bugged - meaning, in how much time would a full plate be empty? (So far, being totally surrounded by lava seems to me it's the fastest way to get damaged)
I'm still stupidly hoping for a configuration file once the devs manage to debug it... :-s
edit : thank you for your answer, by the way.
IIRC someone said they spend a full 5 min or so in lava before they started taking heart damage. Could be wrong though since i forgot where i read this.
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IIRC someone said they spend a full 5 min or so in lava before they started taking heart damage. Could be wrong though since i forgot where i read this.
That doesn't sound right to me, I remember a few months back testing this with a nano-suit, I'm pretty certain (if I remember correctly, and the suit wasn't for some reason buffed) that I stayed in for just over 10 minutes before heart damage started
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It's kinda hard to get Nuclear Reactors, UU Matter and Quantum armor going on "normal" IC2.
[...]
I think Quantum is OP because it only takes 1 million EU per piece. That's easy to get, I know.Err... I must be overlooking something, because this sounds like a contradiction to me, no?
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But Minecraft-1.3-Singleplayer needs at least two Cores to run fine
Bullshit. All you need is OptiFine. I have 1 core, 1.5GBs of RAM and, with OptiFine, my FPS goes around 20. Runs pretty smooth for it to be on Normal+32.
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Bullshit. All you need is OptiFine. I have 1 core, 1.5GBs of RAM and, with OptiFine, my FPS goes around 20. Runs pretty smooth for it to be on Normal+32.
Are you sure that its just one Core? Minecraft 1.3+ tells you your Systemproperties in the Snoopersettings.
