[Addon V1.36] Dynamo -> [BTW v3.0] [IC² v1.23]

Quote from jorgebonafe

I actually think that Flower child quit the forge because he didn't like that his mod was compatible with other mods.

Biggest reason there... Initially, I think Flowerchild believed that compatibility with other mods meant that he could share and collaborate with others with his work, and by doing so expand his mod. However, the ultimate reason why he began hating this was due to the fact that the compatibility altered and 'deformed' the game design of his base mod by other mods and their modifications. Specifically, when I began showing my work on Youtube with the BTW community, they became flabbergasted at the level of change I could institute with simple CR designs and tech tree alterations. Alternatively, I ended up with some of the most unique styled progression paths in the game with my recipe 'addons', and I do think this is why FC began to leer away from compatibility as a whole (because when FC began to make some rigid, semi-unreasonable changes to the BTW base, I was usually the first to straight up circumvent said changes, lol...)

So basically, the Forge leaving is a move to basically "preserve the mod" in his mind. Which, tbh, is pretty damn vain overall due to how modding works period. FC can try and 'justify' his move as much as he wants, but really it boils down to him wanting his mod 'played his way'...

That's a tall order to ask from the very same people who won't play MC 'the way it was intended'...

Quote from MagusUnion

Biggest reason there... Initially, I think Flowerchild believed that compatibility with other mods meant that he could share and collaborate with others with his work, and by doing so expand his mod. However, the ultimate reason why he began hating this was due to the fact that the compatibility altered and 'deformed' the game design of his base mod by other mods and their modifications. Specifically, when I began showing my work on Youtube with the BTW community, they became flabbergasted at the level of change I could institute with simple CR designs and tech tree alterations. Alternatively, I ended up with some of the most unique styled progression paths in the game with my recipe 'addons', and I do think this is why FC began to leer away from compatibility as a whole (because when FC began to make some rigid, semi-unreasonable changes to the BTW base, I was usually the first to straight up circumvent said changes, lol...)

So basically, the Forge leaving is a move to basically "preserve the mod" in his mind. Which, tbh, is pretty damn vain overall due to how modding works period. FC can try and 'justify' his move as much as he wants, but really it boils down to him wanting his mod 'played his way'...

That's a tall order to ask from the very same people who won't play MC 'the way it was intended'...

If that is the case, it would indeed be a very selfish move his.

Quote from melis256

If that is the case, it would indeed be a very selfish move his.

Unfortunately, it is (most likely) true, and doesn't FC have a history of being a bitch about things? Like the YogBox. That one i didnt really care for, but now, he's REALLY overdone it.

Quote from MagusUnion

Biggest reason there... Initially, I think Flowerchild believed that compatibility with other mods meant that he could share and collaborate with others with his work, and by doing so expand his mod. However, the ultimate reason why he began hating this was due to the fact that the compatibility altered and 'deformed' the game design of his base mod by other mods and their modifications. Specifically, when I began showing my work on Youtube with the BTW community, they became flabbergasted at the level of change I could institute with simple CR designs and tech tree alterations. Alternatively, I ended up with some of the most unique styled progression paths in the game with my recipe 'addons', and I do think this is why FC began to leer away from compatibility as a whole (because when FC began to make some rigid, semi-unreasonable changes to the BTW base, I was usually the first to straight up circumvent said changes, lol...)

So basically, the Forge leaving is a move to basically "preserve the mod" in his mind. Which, tbh, is pretty damn vain overall due to how modding works period. FC can try and 'justify' his move as much as he wants, but really it boils down to him wanting his mod 'played his way'...

That's a tall order to ask from the very same people who won't play MC 'the way it was intended'...

I feel like someone might be upset because after constantly complaining about everything FC did he finally banned you from the forums followed by several posts of people thanking him for it. As someone who was there, I don't remember a lot of people being "flabbergasted" at the thread you're referring to (or maybe you meant my thread which people just didn't really get what you were saying, and when you received an ounce of criticism you got all angry at it). You did like to announce "I was the first person to get all the forge mods working together anyway", sorry!

For anyone who's curious, FC extensively talks about his actual reasons behind doing it here: http://youtu.be/UlCPS-DT9hM

Not intending to derail this thread too much, but you can't post "I believe this was the reasons" without a reference to a video which actually explains what his reasons. It's just an unfair representation of the situation I think.

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yeah, he throws a big temper tantrum, partially over eloraam modifying base classes for forge hooks.
What does he do? turn around and modify base classes *himself* whenever he sees fit. I don't really play BTW anymore but I keep up to date on the changes, just because. Two of the new features he introduced modify the base classes.
I'm sure he doesn't see a problem with this either. Seems like the very definition of hypocrite to me.

What were the base class edits you're referring to? Forge altered 13 base class at Elo's direction in order to make sure that torches can stick on the side of covers. I think FCs criticism wasn't "don't edit base classes" but "don't edit them in an API unless it's going to provide a lot of functionality" Obviously SOME base class edits must be done by forge, but such a massive overhaul for such a TINY feature that at the time only RedPower is different then editing a single class file to create the ore dictionary, or similar VALUBLE changes.

Quote from jorgebonafe

FC did the mod for fun, and then for people who could enjoy the kind of challenge his mod provides. Since he is not getting payed, it really doesn't matter for him if there are 100 players instead of 1000...

See, that's what makes this a foolish enterprise in the first place. At what point is the amount of work you do to make something no longer worth the effort? Spending hundreds of hours to write a mod for thousands of players seems like time well spent... spending it for dozens of players less so.

He can say it doesn't matter, but would he ultimately be writing this mod if he was the only one using it? Doubtful... although at the rate he's alienating players who were otherwise interested, we'll know soon enough.
Despite his claims, FC does this to stroke his vanity and boost his ego - his true colors are displayed when he replies to critics. He lacks the grace and tact to disarm his detractors and when he returns fire, he only proves them right (and turns off people who were merely observers).

It's a shame, I never saw someone who so ardently wants people NOT to play his mod! People are eager to use his work and the basically tells them "NO! You CAN'T have it!" I defy anyone to call this a recipe for long-term success.

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Not intending to derail this thread too much, but you can't post "I believe this was the reasons" without a reference to a video which actually explains what his reasons.

Uh, yeah... I can, because it's called an opinion (and they don't have to be right). And considering you are a fan-boy of his work I can't exactly give you much validity in your comments either since you want to hard ball this as a personal attack against me. This isn't FC forums, and despite what you may believe I don't 'swear wholly allegence to Alba' for IC either. So your post is a pretty moot point trying to 'discredit' 'my opinion'....

Quote from HeadHunter67

See, that's what makes this a foolish enterprise in the first place. At what point is the amount of work you do to make something no longer worth the effort? Spending hundreds of hours to write a mod for thousands of players seems like time well spent... spending it for dozens of players less so.

He can say it doesn't matter, but would he ultimately be writing this mod if he was the only one using it? Doubtful... although at the rate he's alienating players who were otherwise interested, we'll know soon enough.
Despite his claims, FC does this to stroke his vanity and boost his ego - his true colors are displayed when he replies to critics. He lacks the grace and tact to disarm his detractors and when he returns fire, he only proves them right (and turns off people who were merely observers).

It's a shame, I bever saw someone who so ardently wants people NOT to play his mod! People are eager to use his work and the basically tells them "NO! You CAN'T have it!" I defy anyone to call this a recipe for long-term success.

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Precisely, and no matter how much FC tries to hide it, this still remains as an evident constant to why FC does anything with BTW as a whole. The moment he feels his ego becomes violated, he attacks. And while other Forge mod developers may be guilty of the same thing, at least they have the intelligence and acceptance to the fact that not everyone will play the mod the same way. Addon's, cross-compatibility add-on's, overlapping resource usages, are some of the most pinnacle examples of mod blending and the greatness of compatibility. But sadly, these are all things FC opposes of, because it violates "his grand design," because (again, imo, lol) his form of game balance and design takes priority over everyone else's...

Quote from MagusUnion

Uh, yeah... I can, because it's called an opinion (and they don't have to be right). And considering you are a fan-boy of his work I can't exactly give you much validity in your comments either since you want to hard ball this as a personal attack against me. This isn't FC forums, and despite what you may believe I don't 'swear wholly allegence to Alba' for IC either. So your post is a pretty moot point trying to 'discredit' 'my opinion'....

Yeah, the whole "It's just my opinion, but your opinion doesn't matter thing" is about as childish as you can get. You can't just dismiss people because they like something you stopped liking (blah blah you're a fanboy). You also can't criticize people with personal attacks then get all offended when someone brings one your way. How can you criticize other people for the exact attacks you're taking part in?

Yeah, never suggested you swear allegiance to IC either, sorry. Unlike you I don't make claims about who other people "swear allegiance to". Also, I don't swear allegiance to FC, I just like his mod for SSP. I use RP, Buildcraft, and IC2 for my SMP server. I just find you to be as egotistical as anyone in this entire modding community, except unlike people who create technically impressive mods like Alba/Elo/Spacetoad/FC who are all fantastic contributors to the community in different ways, you don't even have a good reason to act important.

Who cares if someone wants to control how their mod is played? You can just not play with it. Why should they spend extra time so that you can play your mod with another mod that duplicates or overpowers half their functionality? His game design takes precedence over others... in his mod. Shocking I know but literally everyone who's made a mod makes it so that they can alter the game in a way they think is interesting and better than if they hadn't. IF they didn't think their design was better, why would they design a game progression? What's the point if you think it won't be better?

You're basically criticizing him for thinking he's making something that people would choose to play. That's absolutely absurd.

Quote from HeadHunter67

See, that's what makes this a foolish enterprise in the first place. At what point is the amount of work you do to make something no longer worth the effort? Spending hundreds of hours to write a mod for thousands of players seems like time well spent... spending it for dozens of players less so.

And to somebody who makes no money from the mod, and who has had issues in the past with large communities, what value to him are those lost thousands?

Look. I'll start by saying this: You are correct. His reasons are selfish. So what?

The only immediate motivation for FC making his mod is the enjoyment that he gets out of it. Probably the second-most direct motivation is coming across people who share similar ideals and who love the mod. And that's basically what he boiled his community down to with this decision.

Yeah, sure, it's nice to have more people than just those who agree with you. But that brings the people who beg for things to work another way (and other such things that detract from the overall enjoyment of making the mod). And seeing as the only thing he gets out of this is enjoyment and a small sense of charity, how do you expect him to react?

You're all free to be upset at this choice. But it is not his duty to make all his players happy. He's just making something and sharing it with the world. And if the world's just gonna bite back, then there's better things he could be doing.

Quote from MagusUnion

Uh, yeah... I can, because it's called an opinion (and they don't have to be right). And considering you are a fan-boy of his work I can't exactly give you much validity in your comments either since you want to hard ball this as a personal attack against me. This isn't FC forums, and despite what you may believe I don't 'swear wholly allegence to Alba' for IC either. So your post is a pretty moot point trying to 'discredit' 'my opinion'....

Precisely, and no matter how much FC tries to hide it, this still remains as an evident constant to why FC does anything with BTW as a whole. The moment he feels his ego becomes violated, he attacks. And while other Forge mod developers may be guilty of the same thing, at least they have the intelligence and acceptance to the fact that not everyone will play the mod the same way. Addon's, cross-compatibility add-on's, overlapping resource usages, are some of the most pinnacle examples of mod blending and the greatness of compatibility. But sadly, these are all things FC opposes of, because it violates "his grand design," because (again, imo, lol) his form of game balance and design takes priority over everyone else's...

Three things.
1.) FC has a massive ego.
2.) he acts like a jerk 99% of the time.
3.) he improved breeding in MC immensely.

You don't like moving away from forge? use the last forge capable mod and update it yourself and then distribute it.

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You can't just dismiss people

Yeah, I can... because you are white knighting for FC/BTW right now. You are right about 'just don't play it' though, which is what I'm doing. Just because my opinion 'seems wrong' or 'is wrong' doesn't mean I can't post it. It also doesn't mean people have to listen to what I say either (and I actually expect people to mostly ignore me anyways 9/10). Sadly, you fail to understand those two key concepts, and have derailed this thread quite extensively...

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Look. I'll start by saying this: You are correct. His reasons are selfish. So what?

*shrug* about the most honest thing I think we are going to get out of the BTW community. Which, tbh, we aren't trying to say he can't be selfish with his mod, but at the same time, we are voicing our dismay at his decision. Doesn't mean we think he should change his decision, but it just means that there are those of us who disagree with it. And if that's such a crime, then idk what to tell you then...

Quote from MagusUnion

*shrug* about the most honest thing I think we are going to get out of the BTW community. Which, tbh, we aren't trying to say he can't be selfish with his mod, but at the same time, we are voicing our dismay at his decision. Doesn't mean we think he should change his decision, but it just means that there are those of us who disagree with it. And if that's such a crime, then idk what to tell you then...

Then I see we're already in a complete understanding.

You're free to be upset. This is a decision that has broken a lot of worlds and has forced many to make a decision. What motivated me to argue my position on here is that, given which side of the rift I'm on, I feel uncomfortable seeing people make these claims about FC.

But then again, part of my very argument is that FC isn't worried too much about his public image (at least for this decision). So, all things considered, there's really no point in me defending him in the first place.

So I'll shut my trap. Carry on, then!

Quote from ExpHP

What motivated me to argue my position on here is that, given which side of the split I'm on, I feel uncomfortable seeing people make these claims about FC.

My claims are based simply on observation of the situation, including his thread on the MC Forums.
I know he says he's not concerned about popularity, but we'll see how his claim holds up in the long run.
And even if popularity is not his concern, it's no reason for him to act the way he does to people who have criticism - especially when they're people who would like to use the mod, but cannot due to his choice.

Take his "personality conflicts" with Eloraam - she's shown herself to be open to rational discussion and treats even her critics with tact and grace. She doesn't lose her cool, she doesn't put people down - that's the kind of class that FC will never have. So if he can't get along with her, that doesn't reflect poorly on her. As I told him, if he's not careful, BTW will become known as "the mod jerks use" - and no one wins then.

Enough... there is enough consensus between the sides to see that arguing this is a moot point. We can at least agree that FC can do what he wants with his mod, and he don't have to agree with his decisions. Since that point has been made, there is no reason to deviate this thread any further. There is no reason the argue the 'rights' or 'wrongs' about this issue, as it does little to affect the outcome of either Forge or BTW development. Plus, I don't believe it's fair to jorgebonafe to use his add-on thread as a means to carry out/continue a flame war (he has, after all, worked hard on his add-on to allow cross compatibility between IC2 and BTW)...

So that is that. We may not like the direction that ANY mod takes, but we ALWAYS have the option of simply not using said mods. If that is how it must be, then so be it...

(and I say this because I'd rather not have a moderator lock this thread down, btw...)

Agreed.

When circumstances change [at some theoretical point in the distant future], it'd be awfully helpful if jorge still had a thread to post in.

Quote from MagusUnion

(he has, after all, worked hard on his add-on to allow cross compatibility between IC2 and BTW)...

Agreed - but the reason all this came up is because now, that's meaningless - BTW is no longer compatible with Forge mods, so all that hard work is for naught.
It seems important to note that the mod developer has, by choice, made the add-on obsolete.

I am sorry to have *somewhat* started this argument. This has done nothing except wear out our keyboards, and its not like FC is going to read this anyway. That is all. We should leave this thread alone until FC and Spacetoad work something out. Until then, goodbye.

Quote from Electrobob992

Long statement... Read If you want to. Not spam, just opinion.

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I actually think that Flower child quit the forge because he didn't like that his mod was compatible with other mods. And because of the techic pack having it included before. He probably left the forge to make his mod completely incompatible so no one can make mod packs with his mod. Besides His mod is gets boring after a while on its own, am I right. The only reasons I like BTW is because of the awesome water/windmills, the buddy block, the hopper, millstone, hibachi, and cauldron. And I believe that even if minecraft includes the ability for mods to be 100% compatible with each other, with a ton of new empty Ids, flowerchild will still try to make his mod incompatible. But I will say that Notch made minecraft for the people who play it to have fun in there own way, whether that would be griefing, or adventuring, building, modding, or anything that pleases them. So what Im saying is that ALL mods should be compatible with each other no matter if the mod's creator wants them to be or not. Im really hoping that what ever the people at mojang are planning I hope they can get a modding API into the base code that would automatically make every mod compatible. If I could have any wish I would wish that I would be the one to make an api that does alot like forge,modloader,and every other api combined, but just editing one class. And in my mind it would compress every block ID into 2 groups Vanilla and mods. With their own folders in creative mode and TMI And yes I do mean that. I mean sure it most likely corrupt old worlds but the benefits. But I could believe that there is a way to make mods use ids, yet they would be decimal sized. Like if I added a block I could give it the block Id of 249.0005 and that would take up a fraction of the ids we use now. But I doubt that could happen. Oh well as long as there is MC nostalgia and backups for mods I can always go back to old versions of mods such as BTW and play with them like before.

http://www.minecraftforum.net/…dcraft-v-10-upd-dec-31st/ is now gonna make you update the mod again

Quote from Sami06041991

http://www.minecraftforum.net/…dcraft-v-10-upd-dec-31st/ is now gonna make you update the mod again

nope, read the whole post:

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Minecraft Forge is NOT required to be installed for this mod to function (installing it separately will actually interfere with the proper functioning of this mod). However, the current release of BTB contains several Forge files.

basically it's still not forge compatible due to FC's little hissy fit and refusing to use the forge due to his overinflated ego.