Suggestion : Handle enchantments somehow...

Quote from HeadHunter67

I do not presume or assume anything - it's clear that you don't mind the changes IC has wrought, by virtue of the fact that you use it. You do use it, right? If I'm assuming anything, it's that you wouldn't be weighing an opinion on a mod you don't use.

I don't think you're attacking anyone - I simply feel that your concern is unfounded, because changing the game is what mods do. Some of them (even the best ones) completely remove or otherwise gate out "vanilla" content. It may be ""unheard of" in Minecraft to date, but it's nothing new to gaming.

I don't "hate" Notch for the changes he's made. In fact, I don't mind the new features at all. I simply feel that enchanting and potions are inconsistent with the theme of IndustrialCraft. I thought I'd makde that clear enough in my preceding posts. If I were playing "vanilla" Minecraft, I'd welcome the changes. The fact that I am here and playing IC should explain why I'd prefer to opt out.

To clarify:
IC does not force me to use any of its items. But this proposed change would force me to forgo enchantments. There is a huge difference.

Quote from Frantic Fanatic

I am rather intrigued, on the other hand, with the rather dim outlook on the enchanting feature expressed in this thread. Do people here hate Notch for modifying his game?

While yes, it is his own game, most of us are still not happy the direction minecraft is going in.
For me, it's not so much that I hate vanilla minecraft, it's just that I feel Industrialcraft and some other mods are simply FAR superior.
To me, to be honest, I don't play minecraft anymore. I play Industrialcraft, Buildcraft and Redpower 2. Minecraft is just an engine to me, not a full game, and I feel we are free to disable/gimp what features of vanilla Minecraft as we please.

To get the original point though, the problem with the enchantment table, is that there is practical way of balancing it with industrialcraft stuff, and therefore it would be best to outright remove it.
Plus I mean, it somewhat clashes with the mood of Industrialcraft. I mean, say for a mod with heavy RPG elements in it, ya the enchantment table would fit right hom there. industrialcraft however is not about magic and whatnot, but rather technology.

Again, I reiterate my point:
To me, minecraft is just an engine, and Industrailcraft is the game. I don't play minecraft, I play Industrialcraft.

EDIT:

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To clarify:
IC does not force me to use any of its items. But this proposed change would force me to forgo enchantments. There is a huge difference.

Well hopefully we can get a config file in that would allow for enabling or disabling of that. I'm fine with you want enchantments and all, but I personally want to keep enchantments out of minecraft.

Quote from Frantic Fanatic

To clarify:
IC does not force me to use any of its items. But this proposed change would force me to forgo enchantments. There is a huge difference.

To clarify:
The only "difference" is that you find one choice palatable, and the other is not. You're not "forced" to use IC at all - if enchantments are of greater importance to you than IC content, you'd be playing 1.0 right now anyhow.
He's already said he would prefer to make it optional if possible.

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The only "difference" is that you find one choice palatable, and the other is not. You're not "forced" to use IC at all

However, the option of both should still be available to him... regardless of if you agree of the 'need' of said enchantments in the game in the first place. Optional configurations can settle this, but I can't same I blame Alba if disabling them outright is the only way to ensure IC stability. Regardless, if he wants both, let's find a way for him to have both...

But on another light hearted note: If the Forge allows for 255 Meta Data slots, and meta data can be assigned to modded blocks, is there a way to go back on vMC slot placements and add 17-255 meta slots for mod items? Course I don't know how that works on sprites, but nonetheless if Forge Meta-data could be applied in such a way, you could end up with over a thousand slots of meta-block placements that way...

(Just a thought. Although double check the amount of meta slots that Forge actually adds plz, because I personally forgot now, lol...)

I would use them both so make it a option to disable enchantments.

Quote from MagusUnion

However, the option of both should still be available to him... regardless of if you agree of the 'need' of said enchantments in the game in the first place. Optional configurations can settle this, but I can't same I blame Alba if disabling them outright is the only way to ensure IC stability. Regardless, if he wants both, let's find a way for him to have both...

I agree - if it's possible to have both, let everyone have the option as to using it or not. But if it comes down to affecting the quality of the mod for the sake of people who want magic and technology, I'd rather not see a compromise. I'd hate to think that Alblaka had to pass up on doing some really amazing things simply for the sake of keeping enchantment/potions open.

And, if there is a similar (but more thematic) process available for technological items, would anyone really miss the arcane way?

In regards to a long-term solution to this 'problem', I feel that I can safely assume that either a new Forge API hook or a base class modification would be needed if we wish to be able to choose whether a new set of armor or tool would be able to be enchanted with the vanilla system.

Once that is accomplished, it would be fair to say, in my opinion, that any IC armor or tool that runs on electricity would be unable to be enchanted, owing to the nature of magical forces disrupting electromagnetic fields. (Add technobabble as required)

If we are going to make a separate 'upgrade' tree for electricity using items (I do like that idea), what attributes would we use to enhance these items? Longer battery life? Speed upgrades?

I don't know a lot about the vanilla enchantment system, but I wouldn't be surprised if many of the abilities could be similarly granted from a technological perspective. In other words, the main thing that changes is the "window dressing" - and of course, the recipes.

Personally, I think that spending XP on research is the best way to go, so you build your CPU, and then tell it "Research Improved Power Transmission" or something along the lines to reduce EU-loss. No idea if that's possible, just throwing ideas out there.

You could go with the "simple" idea of having you require a certain amount of XP to craft certain items, and adding another machine that turns EU into XP. (Possibly creating "plans" that you right-click to turn them into XP?)

Quote from Mensrea

At this point I dont even see this as notch's game anymore. Its albakas and space toads and eloraams game and notch is just some rogue trying to mess things up with his half baked, overgrown man child ideas.

This is GOLD! I thought i'm the only one who thinks this way, the sooner game falls into abandomwere state and moders takes over and carrys on minecraft the better... Last release left me with the feel that notch havent played any RPG ever... MC 1.0.0 is as inbalance as it ever wore. Iron armor = almost invincible, MOB almost grinder is the only way to get good level, believe me I tried not to do it without mob system, 5 nights strait just fighting mobs in a dark field to lvl 29 witch was a waste of iron armour and diamond swords... and it gets worse. So THE GOOD enchantments starts at lvl 40-70... > . < the way it disbalanced even more to nurf diamond sword almost to a stick. Friends server crashes just becouse someone is breeding too much... WTF Mister N is doing ?

GOT OFFTOPIC, So Enchanting sys in IC 2?

>>> I think that enchantment should just be left for nonelectric tools only, and let's say the electric tools could be "Upgraded" by the personal upgrade system of IC2 of some sorts, maybe chipped with different chips like "Energy saver Chip" "Precise mining Chip" "Overdrive Chip" and... well you get the way i'm going with this ?
So all will be happy, dedicated people for IC2 won't complaint that dumb spells dosen't fit IC2 and younger users won't complain that drill can't be enchantet by shyny floating book above obsidian.

Quote from Ranakastrasz

I just expect plenty of mods to remove the new broken content, so as to free up those nice sprite IDs, and replace it with Useful content. Heck, I think last time I installed my huge set of mods I play with, I hit 8 IDs. I imagine notch used at least 8 more ids, so I suppose I will have to drop one next time, unless someone comes out with an anti-notch fix.

Not likely, overwriting vanilla ID's would cross the line which moders try to keep, so they wouldn't hurt each other as well as take away vanilla. Proboly making a separete MC-like game could be the cure : )

Bringing it up again: Eloraam added a Forge hook to prevent item repair, which is a problem with electric tools.

Personally, i like magic, and thought it is a good MC idea. But potions should be more.... like the original potions, with thousands of combinations. Enchantments are fine too, but seem ... unexciting.

I'm all for research. But vanilla should stay.

( i hardly play true "Vanilla" anyways, but...)

Sorry, just had a minor heart attack, but the idea of enchanting items from IC2 is relevant to my interests. Maybe not consumables, and maybe not normal things, but maybe things which have been "Modified" in some way. And recharging them would take more then just EU from a Batbox(or whatever kids are recharging their lightsabers with these days).
Maybe it would take a retardedly complex device which consumes EU and other things to power these things.

Though honestly, I would LOVE to be able to make Mad Science potions. And store them in Energy Drink cans. Hell, adding Plasmids would be awesome. But maybe out of touch with the rest of the mod.

...Though my vision of the future isn't complete without Nanotech which can do anything. And DNA re-sequencers which can grant powers beyond normal human potential. Such as pyrokinesis or laser beams shooting out of your eyes.
And Cybernetics!

Now enchanting. MINING LAZOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote from MineHippie

Oh, and my two cents for what to do with the XP. How about a 'cloning' chamber to make mobs. And you have to infuse them with 'lifeforce' you gathered from other mobs in battle. That happen to take the form of those orbs. Just an idea.

That life force thing is the best explanation for 'XP' being usable for enchanting to begin with. While I love Tech and Magic stuff I don't really like that way of enchanting, I'd love it more if he'd went for a Morrowind like approach, capturing souls as base energy and somehow aquiring the spells you want to enchant into your stuff or somewhat like that. This random crap is just meh.
I'd miss the potions maybe if they get disabled, maybe not. Don't know until I've played some 1.0 : /

Quote from MagusUnion

O.O.... which means that, assuming that this works, my ideas for Forge-like compartmentalization of original vMC content could work (thru a tedious, yet effective, system of remapping blocks to meta-data slots via ID reassignments)

But there is the problem with world generation, as I think Notch set that to being hard coded to each ID... *thinks*

Guess I know what I need to be doing over Thanksgiving break... lol

Well if that remapping of vanilla ids to metas is possible ask Elo how she wrote her terragen modification.
Her Basalt and Marble are same id diff meta's. You'd just had to also remap the whole terragen, then it *should* work. I really don't see why that guy doesn't use that trick from the modders yet anyways and instead uses up even more id's, he should compress his blocks first before expanding even more. They already did for tree saplings, why didn't they also for ore's f.e.? Stones (cobble, smooth, brick etc) stairs and maybe more, all could be compressed into one id but no, why go through the troubles.

Quote from Frantic Fanatic

I also do not understand your statement, or at least your examples. Hunger, drowning, and gravity are still in the game, they are only 'disabled', to use your words, when wearing what is essentially end-game armor, or specialized items that prevent you from wearing real armor. What Al was proposing to do was completely disable an aspect of the game from the word go, just because it conflicts with items you may or may not use in the game.

I am rather intrigued, on the other hand, with the rather dim outlook on the enchanting feature expressed in this thread. Do people here hate Notch for modifying his game?

If at all then I only really hate him for not keeping modding support more in mind and higher in priority, nerfing weapons (great to make the d-sword useless like I've not had less legit ones in my life than fingers...), adding creepers and enderman (these ****ers just ruin everything, I don't mind dying but I damn DO MIND having to fix my own crap <_<) and maybe a few other things I can't remember atm. I guess yeah I hate some to more than some of his ideas. Which is why I'm looking forward to real modding support.

Anyone else btw thinks it would've been easier for him to add that if he'd have kept it in mind from the first sign of being a wish of the community rather than now having to API everything? It'd be a wonder if we get that already in 2012... Unless he'd seriously try to make that asap but I doubt that.

I really hate to be the guy on the other side of the fence from everyone, but I have to put my foot in the door for a sec.

First of all.. HURRAY! WE CAN STOP BLAMING NOTCH! He has officially made Minecraft Jeb's game! So Jeb pretty much has the final say on anything that happens to minecraft... boy I sure hope he DOES pull rank if Notch wants to do something stupid.

Okay, got that out of the way. As for Xp and enchanting... look... the game has NEVER said "This is experience" "This number is what level you are", people have only come to associate them with that because Notch made mention of it (Not even sure when, tbh... prolly E3). Anyway, the game doesn't say "XP" and it doesn't say "Levels". When I first played with them, I did what I did for ANYTHING new in minecraft... I made up my own explanation for it. And the number obviously meant I had accumulated quite a bit of these things and was there to give me a good indication of how much of this "stuff" I had. I mean, seriously, who else here made up a reason for why they had to hide in a hole at night because there were monsters outsi -- MONSTERS?!? Why are there monsters outside?! I dunno, probably because of blahblahblahbla-- See what I'm saying? The game doesn't elaborate on any of this. I was far more entertained by my own explanations of the surroundings than I was by ... whatever everyone else thinks of it.

What should we do about enchanting? Leave it. If someone was stupid enough to enchant their quantum suit, I hope they get Protection... boy how useless would THAT enchantment be on a quantum suit? Yeah, let's consume EXTRA charge to REDUCE DAMAGE!! That'll show those IC2 devs that I know what I'm talking about! Uh huh... whatever. Point is, enchantments don't come off. And you're worried that people will be making super uber equipment? So what? The quantum pieces are PERMANENT. If they enchant a quantum suit piece, they're running a HUGE RISK of having to scrap it and make a new one to try again!

On the other hand, instead of gambling away their hard earned soul-power-of-the-damned and hard earned Iridium, they can pool into researching and maybe having a CHOICE of upgrades for their suit.

I see this as a win-win! With the not-so-technical, you're gambling... a lot. With the tech, you spend extra time, but win out in the end.

As for potions... leave them as well. Potions are temporary, technology is forever. Potions would be a waste of materials next to technology, but a good alternative in the meantime until you can grow that technology.

I think a BETTER question here would be "What to do about blaze rods?" These things are FARMABLE FUEL FOR FURNACES!!! They are also technically a source of HEAT, so if they stick around, I better be able to feed these things into my geothermal generator! If not, a normal generator at the very least.

Yeah.... super post FTW! That was my 8 cents

Sounds good to me! I wouldn't have used vanilla enchanting on IC gear anyway.

Btw... what WILL happen in regards to blaze rods? Fuel for generators? Maybe *ahem* geothermals?